Polite Request

[HAVOCA]

Please could members make more of an effort to use grammar and correct spelling.

Don't worry, I'm as guilty as the next person but I think we all need to take a few extra minutes when composing a message before hitting the submit button.

A nicely composed, grammatically correct message helps other members digest the thread and therefore provide more/better feedback to you.

What sort of things should you consider:

1 Dont use text speak (e.g. i av bin finking of u 4 ages)
2 As a bare minimum please use full stops and commas.
3 Try to use paragraphs
4 Dont use all capitals
5 Use a spell checker before submitting (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=57&t=13789&p=95646&hilit=spell+checker#p95646)

Of course, some of us suffer with dyslexia and other reading/writng problems; most of which google spell checkerwill help with.

If you take the time to make your thread easily readable you'll find the standard and number of replies will also have an equal amount of effort put in.

Any questions, just shout!

[jml]

Thank you jamie

As one dyslexic that cannot read text speak at all - I have to get my sister to translate my niece's messages to me!!!!

All capitals are another thing a dyslexic has difficulty with - believe it or not - I haven't figured out why - but I do rely heavily on a spellchecker when I type - OK it doesn't like the word spellchecker!!!

I'm lucky that I can type and many dyslexics find it easier to type than write - so thank you.

I apologise in advance if some of my sentences do not make sense - I have real trouble with the word from and form - don't even know which way round I've typed it!

jml

[effie2]

I get the feeling that a lot of posts are written in a hurry with everything coming out in a rush, as you're thinking you're typing. At the end once it's done bang the submit button and get rid of it, perhaps before you change your mind. A lot of deep thoughts do come out that way, in a rush, in a jumble. I do understand that and have done it myself but I must admit occasionally I look at a post and haven't got a clue what is being said. I leave that post to others who do understand it. Jaimie is right to comment on it as getting your point across is very important if help is needed but we also should understand that sometimes it isn't possible and that in that jumble of words there is a very important message or revelation that had to be rushed out while courage was there.
effie2

[poppet]

will it be ok in rant an rave and inner child jamie ?

[pepa]

Well... A problem I find is that the spellers usually correct the words but not the grammar, For example, Office Word
corrects some few things but most of them not. And obviously, a program can't imagine what I want to say...
Even if I try to review it, some times I discover the errors when I re-read the post time after, and probably most of times
there are many other errors that I don't see due to my lack of English language skills

By the way, the google toolbar works with internet explorer but it doesn't work with firefox (only with older versions).
Most of you probably use windows and internet explorer but I have not access to it from the linux machines at the office.
I don't know if other people can have the same problem. In this case it's very easy to install the speller in firefox.
To turn it on go to Tools / Options (Windows) or Edit /Preferences (Linux) dialog box – look under the 'Advanced / General' tab for a checkbox labelled "Check my spelling as I type"
And for installing the dictionaries just click on the right button when you are typing the message, select Language/Add Dictionaries.

[Jamie]

A problem I find is that the spellers usually correct the words but not the grammar

I think the key words here are 'make an effort to'

Nobody is perfect and mistakes are fine but when posts are written that clearly have no effort applied, most of the meaning and sentiment can be lost.

will it be ok in rant an rave and inner child jamie

It depends if you want your post to be understood and read by as many people as possible. You may find that some people are put off of reading posts where poor grammar, poor spelling, text speak, upper case or a mixture of all have rendered the thread almost incomprehensible.

Bottom line is, apply common sense to all your posts in order to maximise the exposure and ultimately the support you are trying to find.

[klair81]

It is like being at bloody work sometimes. Had the exact same type of email at work this week, so maybe it is a sore subject. But I get it at work, the need to be professional and all. Here, on this forum, I feel different.

In my opinion, I would rather someone felt safe to release, in writing, whatever they need/want too, without having the added pressure to check for spellings and grammer. Many of my posts would not have been made had I needed to check them, I had such an urgent need to get them out, checking them would have made it harder to be honest - I guess I would have done more editing than just a full stop here and there.

If we as individuals find it frustrating to read anothers post, a post they have chosen to send in the way they have sent it, then we need to look at who really has the issue. When it comes down to it, isn't the process more important?

[Aine]

Uhm... I'm not comfortable writing this, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... But Jamie did write "polite request". It's not a rule, it's a request. And it's good advice. If you need to just write things and press send, then that's what you need to do to express yourself. No one is scolded for not checking their grammar and spelling.

Jamie also gave a reason for the advice; some people do find it hard to read "text type", or posts with a lot of abbreviations, or texts that just run on in one massive block. I do. There are posts that I've started reading but can't read through. Some because of how they are written, others because the content triggers me.

I'm not out to get anyone, I'm just voicing my opinion on this as I see some people seem upset by a "restriction". English is not my first language, so I am quite sure I make mistakes in spelling and grammar. I don't use spell check; for me that would make the whole thing too formal and I'd probably just erase most of my posts. So I totally get having to do things your own way - Jamie was just pointing out that posts that are harder to read might not get as many answers, as some people will struggle reading them.

[Jamie]

Yes thanks guys - this isn't an ultimatum or a directive, its just a polite request. It actually came about a few weeks ago when a member who has now sadly left, felt her posts aren't given the same attention and support that other threads received. When it came down to it that member's posts were full of text speak and didn't contain any punctuation. Now, I for one, still read and try to digest any post, in the spirit of HAVOCA, but I understand those members who don't have the time to do that and therefore are unable to offer the same level of support.

Clearly there will be people who struggle with literacy and this 'polite request' isn't trying to alienate them. After all there is no reason why those people cant use a spell checker and at least make an effort that way.

Look at it a different way, if someone entered a room and hurriedly spoke, without pausing, started shouting and using abbreviations. You'd more than likely have a polite word with them, explain to get a point over it would be better for THEM if they slowed down, lowered their voice and used the best English they could. There's no difference here. We communicate with the written word. If you've come here looking for support and want the most out of HAVOCA then it pays to spend a little extra time to write what you need to say.

When it comes down to it, isn't the process more important?

I agree, the process is more important but like my earlier example, if a member wants the process to be as fulfilling as possible then this thread is asking them to spend a few more moments writing their message.

Jamie was just pointing out that posts that are harder to read might not get as many answers, as some people will struggle reading them.

This isn't about getting grumpy over a missing full stop or a spelling mistake - we all make those. This is about realising the full potential this supportive site has to offer.

[jml]

Jamie

On the subject of trying to read posts - I do try to read people's posts but do have trouble sometimes because I cannot physically see some words even when they are there on the screen - although I sometimes used text to talk software it has trouble with grammar and sounds too much like stephen hawking. This means that I can totally misinterpret a meaning of a message. I rely heavily on spelling programmes and grammar checkers. So I apologise to those people who get the answers they aren't expecting from me.

My grandfather was totally illiterate and my mum must have suffered from dyslexia as well - I remember her sending a postcard to my sister and I that made no sense whatsoever - that was until we met up for lunch and put the two cards together - the sentences then made sense....

[suzee]

I can see Jamie's perspective but I do think that the threads on this forum are all about quite raw feelings and emotions and whether this is communicated in a grammatically correct way or not does not personally make any difference to me. Obviously if I couldn't read the message at all then it would be difficult but personally for me lack of puctuation or capital letters or using text speak poses no problem in trying to understand or support someones's pain. I kind of compare it to not expecting clients to have elocution lessons before they start counselling sessions. Just my opinion and I don't want to upset anyone because I find Havoca invaluable now in my healing process xxx

[Stez]

Oh flippin’eck – can o’worms an no mistake!
Excellent suggestion in terms of how people can communicate better… but a polite request IS a directive no matter how you dress it up.
I should probs PM this to you Jamie, but I figure best to share publicly – in the spirit n’all that!

Reading through, I can see totally why you would feel this necessary to cite… but if I hadn’t bothered reading through - then I would be accusing you of same – not cos you’re speaking in text speak or being all ungrammatical with yerself, but because I felt defensive til I knew the reason why.
I’ve been around this cite long enough to trust you, to know that you are a splendid person who only makes changes or suggestions when you feel it will be beneficial, to believe you will always have a sound reason for doing so… but I’ve also been around long enough to know that many people here are at different places and its easy to trust that you are known by virtue of longevity and beginnings. It’s easy to forget that how we are is not instantly known by others.

Reasoning and point came far down this thread. It was not until you cited the reason that you felt this was a reasonable request that I saw it that way. In all honesty I read this a few days ago and thought WTF!
Can totally see your point, but on the other hand (and that’s a lot of pointing digits to take into account) I would also say that I know for a FACT that I’ve often not had replies precisely because I’ve been too articulate. Presumptions are made, or, more probably someone is scared to answer in a way they think I wouldn’t respect.
And frankly that’s an enormous shame.

This is a site that gives enormous opportunity for people to be able to practise communicating. A site that lends opportunity for voice and feeling whilst making it totally comfortable to acknowledge who you are within that – to learn who you are within that in the first place!
A safe haven of being accepted how you are - for who you are - right at the start of this journey.
The start of this journey being exactly the reason so many people find this site in the first place.

Seriously, you wanna advocate “Talk – but only in a certain way” !!!!!!! I know I know I know this is not what you are saying Jamie, but I fear you run a very great risk of this being the message in the way this post has been put.

See!! Check me out – I waffle. This is not better. Many have been the times that I’ve envied someone just spelling out their shit – in whatever way they are able.
Always I respect that.
Always I send thanks to sweet baby Jesus and his tap dancing shoes that here, at least, is somewhere people can talk – however they can, in whatever way they can and in amongst two thousand odd members, someone, somewhere, will relate.

That’s the way we are thankful for. That is the very great thing you have afforded here. Don’t fuck it up.

I would imagine you are always going to have someone moaning at you that such and such is wrong for such and such reason…. But that’s just the joys of parenting innit.

What you say here, people listen to. So YOU got to be careful about how you say it. Just is.

Stick the essence of your Polite Request in a “ways to help you get the best out of this site” column. It’s extremely good advice in that respect.
OR just post a personal thread about the head fuck of it all.
You can’t win it all, but you can keep yer end game in sight.
Thass all.
Know it’s with love and serious respect - yeah?!
XXXXX

[starshinesometimes]

Jamie, I don't envy your role here one bit!!

I have to agree that text speak is infuriating and very difficult to decipher at times...I also completely get Stez's point of people not bothering to answer if they feel you are more articulate and so might not value their efforts...and how important it is that a forum like this is inclusive, rather than exclusive..

I do agree that its important that no one feels alienated here, regardless of how literate or academic they are and everyone should feel free to express themselves without the constant worry about spelling and accuracy.. some things are hard enough to share, without worrying if they are academically correct or not..having said that if it was 'the done thing' to type in text talk on these forums, that would be equally exclusive..if you want to be fully understood then obviously a common and distinguished language is the best approach.

On other forums I have seen similar topics and the emphasis has always been that as an international community, accurate English is essential and the easiest way to ensure that people don't feel left out or unable to participate.
It is difficult as some younger members have learned to type in a time where text/online chatroom speak is considered 'the norm.' but in theory its easier to ask them to type in proper English (as they already should know it vaguely) as opposed to expect older (or less techy) users to learn text speak.

If I may suggest, when I first came here, apart from the suggestion to introduce myself (great idea to get started!) there was no clear way to navigate the boards rules, ethos, essentially how to use the boards/ make the best use of the forums. I've only just realised that the 'index' would be the best place to check (I am by no means simple or inexperienced when it comes to online forums!) But it just didn't stand out to me. A whole bold 'How to use the forum' section would do wonders.

I understand the lack of 'authority' is appealing but on the other hand a clear directive can make people feel more confident and secure.
Perhaps a more defined section, coming from a 'faceless' Havoca leader would promote the guidelines, with the best intentions.. This would also prevent you Jamie from bearing the brunt of making these changes or highlighting these issues, people would feel it was less personal, and for the good of everyone, not just a 'Jamie whim.' (Not that I am suggesting this is a whim or have heard this term used or anything, just pointing out that people respond better to authority if it doesn't have 'a face.' They are more compliant and dont feel personally attacked from one human to another)
It could also prevent people from falling over themselves apologising to you for having an opinion? After all they are not against you and you having an opinion but they may object to your ideas and you have to accept that as 'Jamie the admin', rather than Jamie the person.. I see all the time people being outraged but apologising all in the same breath! (Because they don't want to offend Jamie the person, but disagree with his ideas)
Anyway within that section it could be better explained the importance of not using text speak and explain that it would improve a users experience and feedback if they are better understood.
Here endeth my ramble

[Jamie]

Thanks again Guys, seriously I do cherish all the feedback.

Regardless of what people may think or try to interpret into my 'polite request' it is JUST that. If you want to call it a directive then great by me, crack on. If it means more people gain the support they need, more people understand posts and can offer support and the job of moderating becomes easier, then I'm happy . If you want to take it in the spirit it's meant, then that works too. So all in all, its a win - win for HAVOCA and the community.

I like the idea of a faceless leader - but I was convinced some time ago to drop the HAVOCA username - however I think you are right, in cases like this it is important. I've changed it forthwith.

Finally, to everyone, never any need to apologise for having an opinion (as long as the opinion is well intentioned )

Jamie

[jml]

I just wanted to say that my text to talk software sometimes has trouble reading some of the posts - I then have to try to read manually - this means that I then miss the words I cannot see physically (It also takes me twice as long to read a post rather than listen)..