HAVOCA Survivors Network Map

[Sigma]

I don't suppose you could, but you could for example say "there are a group in Bristol .. Does anyone fancy a meet up at X park " and who knows they may pm or even then within that thread speak up.

Over time I guess the hope would be to stick the name there. Probably when the fear reduces - for some never,

Guess the same could be said for leaving it just for named pins, as and when you're ready. I can see both sides of this. I do feel it's a step in a journey thing this one, perhaps !

Sig X

[Jamie]

I think my point is that you could put a message up in the 'general' section anyway - regardless of the pin, and hope people see it. Therefore, no need for the map.

On the other hand, if the map has names, then you can PM the user directly - much safer and more private using the PM system.

I think my concern is that members feel they can be identified, followed or stalked by giving a forum username and a rough location. Needle, haystack and winning lottery numbers all spring to mind. I hope you all don't think I'm being flippant - just trying to provide a reality check from the safe side. If I could genuinely see what the risk was I would take the 'map' down immediately.

I also don't want to dismiss the 'fear' people may have over this - feelings are real no matter what the causal factors might be. However, this site should be all about challenging those coping mechanisms not just naturally following what may be perceived as an irrational thought.

[Rosie-the-Riveter]

I think my concern is that members feel they can be identified, followed or stalked by giving a forum username and a rough location. Needle, haystack and winning lottery numbers all spring to mind. I hope you all don't think I'm being flippant - just trying to provide a reality check from the safe side.

With all due respect, Jamie, I have a reality check for you too. The likelihood of being recognized really depends on the size of the city/town that forum members live in, the amount of personal info they've shared about themselves on Havoca, and how well-known they are in their city/town. I know you don't mean to be offensive, but I find your comment to be offensive, dismissive, and hurtful, as if you're ridiculing those of us who are afraid.

For the record, my abuser is most definitely stalking me and I wouldn't want her to find me on here. Also, I've posted a lot of personal stuff that I wouldn't want my friends, bosses, colleagues, neighbours, acquaintances, distant relatives, etc. reading. And, yes, I live in a small enough place, know enough people, and have shared enough about myself on Havoca that there would be a reasonable likelihood of me being recognized if I shared my location.

I understand that for many forum users, this isn't a worry. And that's fine. But, please don't dismiss the fears of those of us who are legitimately afraid.

[NinaEllie]

This thread is making me really nervous and I'm feeling vulnerable.
I felt like this was a place I could be myself in safety and understanding.
I'm feeling very differently to that now and really starting to regret sharing and feeling I was able to share. In fact...
I'm scared witless.

[Jamie]

I think my concern is that members feel they can be identified, followed or stalked by giving a forum username and a rough location. Needle, haystack and winning lottery numbers all spring to mind. I hope you all don't think I'm being flippant - just trying to provide a reality check from the safe side.

With all due respect, Jamie, I have a reality check for you too. The likelihood of being recognized really depends on the size of the city/town that forum members live in, the amount of personal info they've shared about themselves on Havoca, and how well-known they are in their city/town. I know you don't mean to be offensive, but I find your comment to be offensive, dismissive, and hurtful, as if you're ridiculing those of us who are afraid.

For the record, my abuser is most definitely stalking me and I wouldn't want her to find me on here. Also, I've posted a lot of personal stuff that I wouldn't want my friends, bosses, colleagues, neighbours, acquaintances, distant relatives, etc. reading. And, yes, I live in a small enough place, know enough people, and have shared enough about myself on Havoca that there would be a reasonable likelihood of me being recognized if I shared my location.

I understand that for many forum users, this isn't a worry. And that's fine. But, please don't dismiss the fears of those of us who are legitimately afraid.

I'm not being dismissive at all, I'm being honest and up-front. I apologise If you find that offensive and hurtful. I cant help that you have interpreted my comments as ridicule, that certainly wasn't the message I was trying to convey. At the risk of sounding flippant again, if you live in a small place where everyone knows you then sharing your location would not be a good idea (named pin or not).

I still don't see how an unnamed pin could help you or any other member.

[Jamie]

This thread is making me really nervous and I'm feeling vulnerable.
I felt like this was a place I could be myself in safety and understanding.
I'm feeling very differently to that now and really starting to regret sharing and feeling I was able to share. In fact...
I'm scared witless.

Can you share why this debate makes you feel like this? Perhaps youd like to start a different thread to get to the issue here?

[Sigma]

Most fears aren't necessarily rational, gosh I know I've flipped out in the past over the exact fears people here are talking about...

Now, I come from a very different perspective, it's highly unlikely and more than that I don't really care .... If someone wishes to track me down and read my rambles then so be it. That's very different to how I felt a few years ago though. So I do feel it's a journey thing.

I guess with the pin - it's a symbolic pin of fear... I mean we have all felt the fear from being found by past abusers !

However, thats past play on today, again I see both sides in this. For me, personally, I don't wish to be controlled/dictated/future etc by the past. But that's taken yonks of time and therapy to get there.

I wouldn't feel this way if that wasn't the case.

Maybe for the sake of the map have only names ? When people feel able/want/happy to stick their name on they can... I can see the logic in having only names. It seems this is two fold to me, fear of the pin (symbolic - nature of online etc etc) and the want to be included in a way that feels ok enough.

I could be wrong - it's just my take on it. X

[ashridge_mack]

Hi

I've been thinking about this and why I feel reluctant to plant my pin, and just got a lot clearer about it. Then I came on and read the latest posts, and what I was going to say overlaps with some...

I'm not worried at all about being tracked down to my address by anybody - essentially because no-one's looking for me. I hear that this is not at all the case for some of you. As it doesn't really apply to me, I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but it does seem to me logically that Jamie is probably right that no-one is ever going to find your actual address from the map (unless maybe you live right in the middle of very isolated country, and give your exact address instead of the nearest town, say).

No, what worries me is that someone who knows me might come across the website. I might recommend it to someone, sometime. Or... I'm not sure - there are a few old friends, and my brother, who know I believe I was sexually abused but know no more than that. Maybe one of them will stumble across Havoca by accident, and just idly start to wonder if I'm one of these people. If they have to search all the posts for someone who sounds like they might be me, that's a lot of searching. But if they can just look at a map and see who's marked round where I live, then go through the probably small number of people marked there, that's easy. And I've dropped clues through lots of my posts that would be easy to recognise for someone who knew me a bit. So they could find me pretty easily.

To which part of me thinks, so what? But part of me also thinks, hold on, when I was making posts about the details of anal rape or lurid flashback memories that I'm not sure how real or metaphorical they are, was I making them for X or Y (these other people I mentioned above) to read, knowing it's me? To which the answer is: NO WAY. I might tell them stuff, but only by making up my mind whether to or not as I went along, not in one mass release.

So that's what worries me. That someone who knows I was abused but doesn't know my havoca name might find it possible to come up with a pretty solid ID by following pins around my area. And then be able to read all my posts, knowing it's me.

It's pretty far-fetched logically, I know that. The odds of anyone caring or getting lucky in the hunt are tiny, I know. And I know, Jamie, you said someone would have to join to see the map - but joining's obviously super easy.... and this is sensitive stuff.

To me, anyway, lol.

[Rosie-the-Riveter]

I still don't see how an unnamed pin could help you or any other member.

I never said it would.

[Rosie-the-Riveter]

No, what worries me is that someone who knows me might come across the website. I might recommend it to someone, sometime. Or... I'm not sure - there are a few old friends, and my brother, who know I believe I was sexually abused but know no more than that. Maybe one of them will stumble across Havoca by accident, and just idly start to wonder if I'm one of these people. If they have to search all the posts for someone who sounds like they might be me, that's a lot of searching. But if they can just look at a map and see who's marked round where I live, then go through the probably small number of people marked there, that's easy. And I've dropped clues through lots of my posts that would be easy to recognise for someone who knew me a bit. So they could find me pretty easily.

To which part of me thinks, so what? But part of me also thinks, hold on, when I was making posts about the details of anal rape or lurid flashback memories that I'm not sure how real or metaphorical they are, was I making them for X or Y (these other people I mentioned above) to read, knowing it's me? To which the answer is: NO WAY. I might tell them stuff, but only by making up my mind whether to or not as I went along, not in one mass release.

So that's what worries me. That someone who knows I was abused but doesn't know my havoca name might find it possible to come up with a pretty solid ID by following pins around my area. And then be able to read all my posts, knowing it's me.

It's pretty far-fetched logically, I know that. The odds of anyone caring or getting lucky in the hunt are tiny, I know. And I know, Jamie, you said someone would have to join to see the map - but joining's obviously super easy.... and this is sensitive stuff.

Bingo. That's it exactly. If I put my town on there, it won't take long for someone who knows me to figure out that it's me. I've casually mentioned enough non-abuse stuff about my personal life (e.g., job, car, neighbours, etc.) on Havoca that anyone who knows me could figure it out. If my stalking abuser finds out, that would put me in a very unsafe situation. If anyone else I know finds out, that would just be awkward and embarrassing. I'm not ashamed of surviving child abuse, but there are things I've written on here that aren't meant for the world to read.

I don't think the map is in and of itself a bad idea. Many Havocians have posted pictures of themselves on here and I think they're very brave for doing so. I just know that we're all dealing with different situations. And I think we all need to respect that some of us may love the idea of using a map to connect with other forum members while others would never feel safe doing so. And that's okay.

[Rosie-the-Riveter]

This thread is making me really nervous and I'm feeling vulnerable.
I felt like this was a place I could be myself in safety and understanding.
I'm feeling very differently to that now and really starting to regret sharing and feeling I was able to share. In fact...
I'm scared witless.

((((((((((((Nina)))))))))))

What is it that you're scared of? You can PM me if you want.

If you're scared witless to plant your pin, then don't. Just because other forum members have, that doesn't mean that you have to. And no one on Havoca will care about you any less if you don't. I don't plan to post my pin--not because I think the map thing is a bad idea but because I enjoy the freedom that comes with anonymity. I'd be scared witless to post my pin too!

I know this whole map thing is becoming a heated debate . . . I guess a lot of people just have strong opinions! But, that doesn't mean that we care about each other any less or that we're any less of a supportive family.

I hope that helps!

[NIgirl]

I am somewhat confused about the issues raised here...

First of all you have to be a member of Havoca to access this map. If someone doesn't meet the criteria to join havoca then they won't be approved as a member, therefore won't have access to the map. And secondly there is choice here. If you do not wish to have your name/pin on the map then it won't be.

People havoca is as safe an environment as we can possibly make it. But it is an online forum and I'm sorry but we are all adults here and it is our own responsibility first and foremost to maintain our own safety when using online forums.

If pinning your location to a map that can only be accessed by members here is alarming to you or makes you feel unsafe then the solution is simple. Don't do it.

[Northern]

I hope it's not becoming heated, just an exchange of ideas.

It's a new idea, a lot of people seem to like the idea of being able to take the connection of the site to a more personal level. I would hope that what we are doing is trying to find a way to meet as many people's needs as possible. But like anything, it's not possible to give everyone exactly what they want, and all new ideas take time to forumlate.

What I find encouraging is that so many feel able to chip in with their thoughts and worries. Nobody is going to be derided or dismissed because of their concerns. There have been so many good considerations raised by everyone. I appreciate that as some of us raise our fears they may trigger new fears for others. But I hope those can be reassured that what seems to be everyone's overarching goal is to keep each other safe.

I feel fortunate for all of the offline contact I have with everyone here. You really can't underestimate the difference it makes being able to talk, text of meet with someone who actually understands how you feel. What might take days of conversation with other friends, and they still won't get it, can take just a simple look or emoji text from people here.

I think what sparked a lot of this thread may have been when Jamie thought that there were not a lot of takers for the idea. Given the lively thread, I think it's safe to say there is an appetite. But maybe it's one that will take time. Like Sig said earlier, at different points on the journey we can do different things. Maybe if those of us who are ok with it occassionally share how positive it has been, in time others may reach that point.

In honour of the post, I've changed my location to my real location rather than my state of mind Coffee is still being served in Scotland and believe it or not, the sun is out!

Jules

[anna 1]

For me personally being in contact with others who understand is priceless and I love the idea of having meet ups ,but I don't have famliy/people that I would be fearful of finding my location so for me it's very simple x

[jessie1411]

Wow what a thread, I just wanted to piggy back Nigirl 's reply, that's exactly it.
I think it's wonderful to have the opportunity to pin your name/ location on the map.
But that is all it is, you DON'T have to, its not compulsory, its there if you feel you want to.
So if people have worries, that's fine, don't do it.
If you want to then that's fine too.
May be a map isn't needed, I don't know, I have been here a year and have been able to build up trust and friendships, I was able to do that with the pm system,
For some there is a need to probably find friends , people who you could work towards meeting up, someone you feel you could connect with and be yourself with, someone who you could meet and talk about your anxieties and maybe work through some stuff that you feel you just could not talk to non survivors about.
But I completely understand if that's not what some people want.
I have pinned my name and location, I am having second thoughts, not sure why!
But it's my choice, its great to know that the map is there, if people want to use it.