Poll - Forgiveness

[cosmictramp]

My first reaction was no - I have not forgiven. Then there is the thought about what exactly is forgiveness? I no longer have that raw anger that I used to have. there has been closure of sorts with the death of my mother, I wanted to go and dance on her grave, but chose to just ignore it. There was definitly a sense of relief at her dying. My other abusers did not remain in my life after the age of 16. I have never consciously forgiven, nor do I fully forget, but have reached that state where I live in the now, which does not include the past most of the time. But does that all mean that I have forgiven? I do not now. so there is a conundrum.

[Cocopop21]

I think the reason that I feel so strongly against forgiving him is that forgiving would be like condoning it. I know you ruined my adolescence, I know you were the reason that I didn't fit in at school, I know that you gave me physical scars that will never go away, I know that you are the reason my brother won't speak to me, I know that you have made me so so so miserable so many times, and I know that you won't even admit to what you did, but I'm going to forgive you and say that's all ok? I don't think so.
For me to forgive would not only feel like condoning what he did to me, but it would also feel like saying it's ok in general to abuse kids. We all know that's not true.

[Jamie]

Also forgiving means they are getting let off they dont need to be haunted by their crimes unlike me who is haunted day in day out how is that fair? xxx

That's interesting. Why do you think forgiving them will mean they won't be haunted by their crimes? If you don't forgive them who is to say they still won't be haunted?

You mention you are haunted by the crime - do you really think your forgiveness means that much to them?

I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong but perhaps forgiveness for their abuse is more about you and less about them.

it comes after acceptance, and that comes after facing the hurt and the pain, and that comes after realising/acknowledging that it's not all because I'm completely useless, nothingness, and that comes after a lot of hurt and pain, and that comes after being able to verbalise or write a lot more of what I can't bear to face, which comes after hurt and pain (and I think there are a lot of steps forward and back within all of that. And in some ways I'm right at the beginning, in others I've moved further. I'm still not sure if after all of those things forgiveness would be a possibility because it's so hard to face the rage against myself. I don't know how I would cope if that was directed elsewhere and I was left with desolation or loss.

Put yourself into the realms of fantasy....what would happen if you were able to 'forgive' in what ever form before you started the journey? How would that make you feel and how would that change the journey you are on, if at all?

Why would fogiving all of a sudden make it easier or better on myself i see no reason to forgive. I can forgive most things in life but forgiving sexaul and physical abuse just seems like something that just doesnt deserve fogiveness. I have accepted i was abused i know it was real he has admitted it in a court of law but that still doesn't mean i am ever going to forgive him.

I don't believe any sort of forgiveness needs to happen 'suddenly' and I also don't think you have to forgive your abuser to move on.

I guess it makes me angry because if i did forgive him what would he gain from it? would it make himk feel happy? would he feel like it was all ok? why should he have any gratitude and my forgivness when he has given me a lifetime of problems. I ofhen wonder if he sits in prison thinking about what he did to me just like i do every day about him.

I dont know why i get so angry about fogiveness

And that is what makes me question your statement that you 'don't see any reason to forgive'. I'm not doubting your resolve but if there is no reason why does it make you so angry? Surely if you'd decided you weren't going to forgive then wouldn't that be that? A bit black and white I know but if you feel angry still perhaps there is room for some forgiveness somewhere down the line.

Also, forgiveness doesn't have to be about your abuser. Is there anyone else that may need forgiveness?

I have never consciously forgiven, nor do I fully forget, but have reached that state where I live in the now, which does not include the past most of the time.

May be for you that is forgiveness? I think some people see forgiveness as a complete barrier or brick wall that can not, under any circumstances, be explored. There seems to be a fear, like Cocopop21 says, that forgiving someone for abusing will condone the abuse.

For me to forgive would not only feel like condoning what he did to me, but it would also feel like saying it's ok in general to abuse kids.

Where does that come from: the belief that if you forgive someone you are saying their actions are acceptable? I don't think forgiveness means that. Why would it?

In the same breathe, and I don't mean to single anyone out because I think these beliefs are held wide across our community, your abuser abused you but although they are responsible for those actions and after-effects they didn't make them happen. That's a difficult one to explain and to justify; so bear with me while I try.

I know that you have made me so so so miserable so many times

Your abuser can't make you miserable. Sure he can be the catalyst that generates those feelings but he can't force you or make you experience misery. Don't worry, I'll explain. I have several Nephews. One loves ice cream, the other hates it. If I make them both eat the ice cream one of them will become very disgruntled and 'miserable'. Now, some might say I caused that because I knew it was wrong but I didn't MAKE him miserable, only he can do that. Its like jealousy. If my Wife has an affair, she hasn't made me jealous, I've done that myself. Some men are completely fine with their Wives having extra-marital relationships (I'm not by the way!!!!).

So, what I'm trying to say, blame and responsibility lie with the perpetrator BUT, and this can be a fine line, we also have a responsibility ourselves to 'own' those feelings. Only we can determine how we feel - anger, sadness, misery, joy, happiness are all controlled from within. You might think I'm crazy but what makes things acceptable and unacceptable drive our own emotions. Some where down the line we decided what was acceptable and therefore what emotions should be assigned to those judgements. I'm not saying for one minute we accept abuse, condone cruelty to children or offer blanket forgiveness to our perpetrators. I'm offering a different perspective on what/how/who makes us sad, angry, miserable etc. and hopefully in doing so make you look differently at forgiveness.

[Sigma]

Forgiveness as in to forgive is to remit, let off, pardon. Or so my dictionary tells me. And hence I shall never pardon the actions of abusers. Though I do understand that some sort of letting go is required. In that to hold the anger etc only serves to continue to hurt yourself.

I do not believe that we have a choice over feelings, they are felt and with some hard work you can learn to deal with them and let them go. So to make them less intense, less a burden.

Has anyone looked at the definition of forgiveness, it says see for go. I then looked at the definition of for and OMG - made me giggle and I have no idea what its on about. I wonder if my oxford dictionary is having a laugh. You should read it. Though I doubt many are as sad as me to find it funny.

Sigma x

[zepto]

Put yourself into the realms of fantasy....what would happen if you were able to 'forgive' in what ever form before you started the journey? How would that make you feel and how would that change the journey you are on, if at all?

Interesting I'll just write what my immediate reactions are/were then I may add later when I've thought about it more.

Initially I thought - how can I do that because then I have far more responsibility and will hate myself more. Then I thought but if I've forgiven someone else (not excused them) but accepted that it was their responsibility and not mine, and that there was something that they did to be ok about, then I would feel tremendous loss, almost like I would lose all of my strength and power (this actually made me teary - so it's very real). I don't know how I would continue.

Then I started wondering what forgiveness meant - for example I have had smaller actions against me - I had my bag stolen from me on the street once, at the time this caused a lot of distress. Now it doesn't (apart from some vulnerability - perhaps a useful lesson), and I also have an understanding of offenders, their motivations, how that sort of crime isn't particularly personal, and how they had some need of it, or a perceived need. I feel ok, I don't have nightmares any more relating to that and I accept it. But is that forgiveness? Or is it something else...

And if that is what forgiveness is then maybe I don't want to be at that point with the abuse, I feel that there is too much lost, too much I want to understand and feel and grieve for, to say it's ok I forgive them.

But then I think we have different definitions? I feel that forgiveness comes when all other emotion is expressed, which perhaps is actually acceptance. Forgiveness feels like something that I perhaps don't have capacity for (though I know that that makes me even worse.)

anyway less rambling, I've lost the point I think.

[Jamie]

I hear that a lot - 'Its OK so I forgive you.'

I wonder why people feel that by forgiving the abuser, they are actually excusing or condoning the act of abuse in itself?

If you forgive your partner for being unfaithful, it doesn't mean you have given them blanket permission to be unfaithful again.
If you forgive a friend because they slapped you, it doesn't mean they can slap you whenever they like.

Forgiveness is less about 'them' and more about 'you'

[NIgirl]

Forgiveness is less about 'them' and more about 'you'

But aren't you forgiving them? So that would make it about them?

I can understand (I think) what your trying to say Jamie! That forgiveness is something that offers us an inner peace, that if we are able to forgive then we won't be consumed and overwhelmed by the emotions that have eaten us up like anger, sadness, despair, guilt, shame, etc when we think of the abuser! Instead if we forgive when we think of our childhoods and the abusers then we will perhaps feel saddened maybe but not totally consumed by it! It won't invade our every waking minute/hour! The rage won't hurt or destroy us inside and we will feel an inner calm and tranquility that we never thought existed!

For me that is what forgiveness is about especially when you say about forgiveness being more about 'you,' but you are forgiving the perpetrator for what they have inflicted aren't you??

So forgiveness is about forgiving another person...not saying it was ok what they did or that they shouldn't pay for it in some way...but about feeling a sense of 'I have my life, you have yours and you will no longer have a negative impact on my life' (can't find the right words for what I'm trying to say here, so bear with me)! But in order to do that it still has to be about them!

Its about them but its for you!

Not sure if I'm making any sense here??

NI x

[Jamie]

Its about them but its for you!

Yes that makes perfect sense.

[hope]

hope wrote:
Why would fogiving all of a sudden make it easier or better on myself i see no reason to forgive. I can forgive most things in life but forgiving sexaul and physical abuse just seems like something that just doesnt deserve fogiveness. I have accepted i was abused i know it was real he has admitted it in a court of law but that still doesn't mean i am ever going to forgive him.

I don't believe any sort of forgiveness needs to happen 'suddenly' and I also don't think you have to forgive your abuser to move on.

hope wrote:
I guess it makes me angry because if i did forgive him what would he gain from it? would it make himk feel happy? would he feel like it was all ok? why should he have any gratitude and my forgivness when he has given me a lifetime of problems. I ofhen wonder if he sits in prison thinking about what he did to me just like i do every day about him.

I dont know why i get so angry about fogiveness

And that is what makes me question your statement that you 'don't see any reason to forgive'. I'm not doubting your resolve but if there is no reason why does it make you so angry? Surely if you'd decided you weren't going to forgive then wouldn't that be that? A bit black and white I know but if you feel angry still perhaps there is room for some forgiveness somewhere down the line.

Also, forgiveness doesn't have to be about your abuser. Is there anyone else that may need forgiveness?

Dear Jamie

I dont want to sound like i am contradicting myself here i don't think forgiveness will ever be a possibility for me. I was more playing devils advocate and airing what it would mean if i did forgive him.

I am angry but its weird its not so much at my situation it's child abusers in general. When i think of him i try and question and question and feel somthing but i feel numb towards him. My anger i dont think is truely directed at him. The sad thing is i think iam more angry with myself and the people around me rather than him.

I need to forgive myself if i could do that and mean it i could have some kind of resolve. A work in prgress for me.

Jamie have you forgiven?

[Liz]

I don't think forgiveness of my abusers is what is important here. For me that is.

Significant session in my T yesterday.

More important that i forgive myself. And it feels i am some way to achieving that. Certainly with one of the perpetrators.

Huge step i think. With the help of my T to turn things around and encourage me to see the whole picture. Still mulling it over. Not sure i shall ever forgive the evil bastards nor give any of my precious time over to dwelling on it. They don't deserve any more of my time.

I need to concentrate on forgiving myself completely. Not that i was to blame i'm not saying that. But for being needy.

Work in Progress...

Catbells x

[dawnie42]

How can i ever forgive what those men did to me ... I have gone and still going through hell... to the point were now i feel as though i was at fault and am really thinking the worst... Suicide...
They have put me through hell from the age of 4...Its a life time punishment ... and i am 42 yrs old and still in pain.... I have spent most of my life trying to put it to the back of my mind and it keeps coming back ....
I was abused not just by one family member but 2 .... so all those that say 'its not your fault' then take a deep down look at and try telling a 42 yr old that for 14 yrs it wasnt your fault ....

Why couldnt i shout out ....???? Try telling me that....


No , i will never forgive my love , not in a million years...xxx

[Jamie]

Am I angry, yes.

Do I still hate what he did, yes.

Jamie have you forgiven?

Yes, I have. He no longer has any holds on me.

I didn't consciously forgive him, its just a place I've arrived at. He means nothing to me, I've conquered the past and I endure the pain. Each day the effects become less and less. Because he no longer matters, I am able to let go of the hold he had on me. In doing so I have allowed myself to forgive his actions. I feel in control and by forgiving him I have placed him beneath me.

I know forgiveness is an individual process and I would never try to preach others did or attempt to do what I've done. For some victims power comes from holding onto the hate and not forgiving deliberately. Like I said, its personal.

I was tired of hating 'him'. Instead I fight the demons within.

Jamie

[JellyBean]

One definition of the word, forgive, in my dictionary is, "to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)."

Since I only realized within the past year how severely I was mistreated, I've also only recently had massive amounts of anger rise up; obviously, it had always been there, but it was frozen inside of me, leading to terrible bouts of depression.

Until I am able to work through my grief, with all of its anger and rage and resentment and pain and sadness, I won't possibly be able to reach any sort of a resolution. Until that time, I will not be in a position to forgive my abusers. If I merely give lip service to having forgiven them, without doing all the hard work involved, then the "forgiveness" is nothing more than a facade.

There is no way I have any intention of giving up my anger/resentment at this point, since feeling the anger/resentment has been one of the most helpful aspects of my therapy. I have not worked my work through it.

At this point, I am not concerned about whether or not I have forgiven them.

[Jamie]

One definition of the word, forgive, in my dictionary is, "to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)."

Thats a good definition.

I am not concerned about whether or not I have forgiven them.

I agree I don't think there is ever any pressure to forgive. Like I mentioned, my forgiveness just happened, it wasn't something I planned. Perhaps thats why i know its real.

Oh and by the way, I may have forgiven but that doesn't mean i don't still get angry.

[rainbow21]

I used to get angry when I tried to forgive my abusers. So I left it alone. But over time I've gained more and more self confidence, been braver to experience life and not hide away from new people and experiences....and slowly over this period of eleven years I just can't be bothered to store all this hatred and bitterness inside because it was poisoning me, and I felt that was just carrying on the negativity they started. So like Jamie I feel angry about what they did, I don't think they had any rights to have done it, and I woudn't want anything to do with them again so that they feel "forgiven" I just don't care what they are doing now. They live with it how they wish, for me I know I was innocent and that they have the memories of torturing me forever. Their desire to gain pleasure from inflicting pain might still be within them ..but they can't do it to me anymore or anyonelse and that's for them to live with not me.
What I'm trying to say is, they are so low down and beneath me I feel disconnected from them, its their own journey now I'm not stuck with them anymore. I don't think forgiveness means you feel fine about it, you learn to endure the pain and anger and it lessens over time. Forgiveness is to do with your self and not continuing to hurt yourself when you get away from your abuser. That has been my experience